Designing My Own Ancient Greek Variant (Diplomacy)

[Tolbethessar]

Btw, Random news:

I was in a random mood, and started working on a possible Diplomacy variant map of the Mediterranean Sea region (Ancient Greek theme). I'm hoping to be able to create some feel of being spreaded out all over the coasts of the Mediterranean with Greek colonies and have a clash in diverse places at the same time.

[Transfermium]

Nov 15, 2019 1:43:44 GMT Tolbethessar said:

Btw, Random news:

I was in a random mood, and started working on a possible Diplomacy variant map of the Mediterranean Sea region (Ancient Greek theme). I'm hoping to be able to create some feel of being spreaded out all over the coasts of the Mediterranean with Greek colonies and have a clash in diverse places at the same time.

IIRC I've saved a bookmark of a decently-looking Dippy variant set in the same setting (Classical Greek) somewhere. It's more focused on the Aegean region rather than the entire Med, but could be useful for inspiration (esp. when dealing with lots of islands). See if I can find it...

[Tolbethessar]

Nov 15, 2019 2:18:47 GMT Transfermium said:

Nov 15, 2019 1:43:44 GMT Tolbethessar said:

Btw, Random news:

I was in a random mood, and started working on a possible Diplomacy variant map of the Mediterranean Sea region (Ancient Greek theme). I'm hoping to be able to create some feel of being spreaded out all over the coasts of the Mediterranean with Greek colonies and have a clash in diverse places at the same time.

IIRC I've saved a bookmark of a decently-looking Dippy variant set in the same setting (Classical Greek) somewhere. It's more focused on the Aegean region rather than the entire Med, but could be useful for inspiration (esp. when dealing with lots of islands). See if I can find it...

Talking about this?
www.dipwiki.com/index.php?title=Aegean

By the way... I've been scourging both VariantBank and DipWiki. But don't see another variant anywhere else.

My current main source of inspiration is here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity#Greek_colonies
Especially the colored map at the top of the wiki article would be the baseline I'm starting off with.

Main differences on my map would be more along the lines of enlarging Southern Italy/Sicily and Greece regions to fit more spaces into them. In fact, my prototype map so far has about 9 spaces on the island of Sicily alone. I will have to merge them a bit later when I'm working on the overall map instead of area by area at the moment. I don't want an unwieldy 'global' map filled with 108 SCs or something crazy like that.

[Transfermium]

Nov 15, 2019 2:30:40 GMT Tolbethessar said:

Nov 15, 2019 2:18:47 GMT Transfermium said:

IIRC I've saved a bookmark of a decently-looking Dippy variant set in the same setting (Classical Greek) somewhere. It's more focused on the Aegean region rather than the entire Med, but could be useful for inspiration (esp. when dealing with lots of islands). See if I can find it...

Talking about this?
www.dipwiki.com/index.php?title=Aegean

By the way... I've been scourging both VariantBank and DipWiki. But don't see another variant anywhere else.

My current main source of inspiration is here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity#Greek_colonies
Especially the colored map at the top of the wiki article would be the baseline I'm starting off with.

Main differences on my map would be more along the lines of enlarging Southern Italy/Sicily and Greece regions to fit more spaces into them. In fact, my prototype map so far has about 9 spaces on the island of Sicily alone. I will have to merge them a bit later when I'm working on the overall map instead of area by area at the moment. I don't want an unwieldy 'global' map filled with 108 SCs or something crazy like that.

Yep, though this page contains clearer (IMO) maps and the designer's design philosophy (Shame the French site it was originally on is dead though, I wanted to see if there was a blank map...).

Yeah, Sicily'll need to be vastly simplified - perhaps just 2 spaces (SC @ Syracuse and some space like Segesta if the map's based on Peloponnesian War) at most. IMO it's good to determine SCs, esp. neutral SCs, based on need rather than lore/history when the basic details of each playable nation are done.

[Tolbethessar]

Nov 15, 2019 2:49:51 GMT Transfermium said:

Nov 15, 2019 2:30:40 GMT Tolbethessar said:

Talking about this?
www.dipwiki.com/index.php?title=Aegean

By the way... I've been scourging both VariantBank and DipWiki. But don't see another variant anywhere else.

My current main source of inspiration is here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity#Greek_colonies
Especially the colored map at the top of the wiki article would be the baseline I'm starting off with.

Main differences on my map would be more along the lines of enlarging Southern Italy/Sicily and Greece regions to fit more spaces into them. In fact, my prototype map so far has about 9 spaces on the island of Sicily alone. I will have to merge them a bit later when I'm working on the overall map instead of area by area at the moment. I don't want an unwieldy 'global' map filled with 108 SCs or something crazy like that.

Yep, though this page contains clearer (IMO) maps and the designer's design philosophy (Shame the French site it was originally on is dead though, I wanted to see if there was a blank map...).

Yeah, Sicily'll need to be vastly simplified - perhaps just 2 spaces (SC @ Syracuse and some space like Segesta if the map's based on Peloponnesian War) at most. IMO it's good to determine SCs, esp. neutral SCs, based on need rather than lore/history when the basic details of each playable nation are done.

Ah nice, I KNEW I had read that article at some point, but couldn't locate it (Diplom.org connections has been wonky, real wonky the last 10 years or so).

Back to Sicily...
Well, I wanted multiple countries having a stake in Sicily & Southern Italy. When considering the unfortunate bias of history toward the mother homeland, it's apparent that people neglect to remember that Magna Graecia was actually outnumbering the original Greeks in both population and wealth (if not counting the random few moments in time when a single power was peaking, AKA Athens with its Delian League). So no, I wanted Sicily to have a considerable importance that weren't normally found in other games.

I mean sure... Magna Graecia got absorbed by the Romans, but so did Greece, you know?

I don't mind altering the scale of some areas to a larger size to match importance. It has been done plenty of times, such as UK's homeland being enlarged for the Victorian/Edwardian era to accommodate the sheer industrial advantage, and the power that comes from being a gigantically global colonizer.

EDIT: Oh also... partial inspiration for my overall design goal:
www.variantbank.org/articles/why_i_love_colonia_vii.htm

OFC, I only want a max of up to maybe 45 SCs (if 7-8 players or so), however.. I haven't really determined how many players would take up space on the map. I only have a vague idea of where I would like each players to be roughly somewhere from 6 to 9 SCs (at end of initial neutral gains), and be scattered in at least 3 places each. Ofc, the more scattered a power would be, a bit more SCs in total for that power, that sort of thing.

[Tolbethessar]

List of Greek groups thus far:

SPOILER: Click to show

NOT a list of players tho.

Top-tier
Athens
Sparta
Thebes
Macedonia

Mid-Tier
Aetolia
Eperios
Thessaly
Corinth

(Weaker) Mainland Greeks
Lokris
Ellis
Phokis
Messenia
Argos
Mycenae
Chalkdike (actually a colony of Euboia, eventually became the pet of its larger neighbor, Macedonia, as a semi-independent league of city-states anyway)

Asia Minor Greeks
Troy
Aiolia
Ionia

Islander Greeks
Ithaka
Corcyra
Cycylades
Crete
Euboia
Dodecanese (Rhodes, basically)

And then the non-Greeks that would have to be considered as armed neutrals perhaps?
Aegyptus, Carthago, Phoenicia, Etruscans + Tiny Roma, Lydia, Phgryians, Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians.
Although, the barbaroi wouldn't necessarily be occupied by pre-placed unit to signify less cohesiveness and less power while the Non-Greek Civs would be still quite formidable and able to defend their homes.
Bithynia would probably just be merged with Byzantion, Caria simply an empty space if existing on map.

I would like to have Ionia being a power, but split into rival groups, Miletos and Samos, probably.
-Miletos has 90 colonies in RL, the number one most prolific colonizer of Greeks all by itself.
-Samos was particular aggressive compared to other Ionians in its wars, and did play a part in the Sicilian area. Phokaia is a better positioned rival to Miletos and did send out colonists to the far west.
-Troy as an armed neutral is a must. I would love to have a player recreate the Trojan war, taking down Troy.

-Athens wouldn't be at its peak ofc, but still fairly scattered around Aegean, I haven't decide to attribute some of the Ionian colonies to Athens which it had partially contributed to, btw.
-Sparta, far as I know, has only one colony, Taranto. I'll have to decide how to handle them a bit differently from the other Greeks who were less reluctant to venture outward. Should be fine with 2 SCs at home, 2 SCs abroad.
-Macedonia, same problem as Sparta, but less so. It has plenty of room to grow northward, can be suitable as a power if I'm including them, I suppose. (Macedonia would still need some help from the map's cartography to let it blossom in Thracia, Dacia, and Illyria to become a contender against the other Greeks)
-Thebes, not sure how many colonies it had bothered to set up... I would have to borrow a bit from the era when it was leading the Boeotian League and see where it was exerting its influence

-Euboia, to my surprise did plenty of colonizing, so I definitely want this one to be one of the players. It was particularly influential in Magna Graecia: Rhegion, Cumae, Neapolis
-Cornith, famously colonized Corcyra (Corfu) only to lose it to Athenian influence and then tried to get it back (thus triggering a DOW, counter-DOW, etc the Peloponnese War). A good choice to include if possible on the crowded Greece. I'm adopting a wait-and-see attitude on this one.
-Ateolia, one of my favorites in a Greek Mod for Civ3, but sadly might have to pass up on that one as a player.
-Epirus/Epiros, can be a decent rival to Macedonia, did have influence in both Magna Graecia & Illyria (southern portion) Definitely neutral at this stage of developing the variant.
-Thessaly, I might have to make it a neutral SC or something to give room in Greece, or at least give it to Thebes, since they were members of the Boeotian League, and they're also in the same Greek dialect, Aiolian.

-Rhodes, I might have to give up on it and leave it as a neutral, haven't really dug deeper into its history atm.
-Crete, I hate to leave the famous Minoans as neutrals, they're practically half-Greeks, so perhaps a later civilization version of Greco-Crete, rather than the Minoans themselves?
-Cycylades, pretty sure either a neutral SC or just an empty space of pathetic islands (Denmark minus the Copenhagen SC on standard map). I might count the whole Cyclades as Delos under Athens, or even put in a neutral Naxos for it to pick as an early gain.

The whole grouping of Weaker Mainland Greeks would definitely be non-players. Delphi perhaps would have a sacred guard unit (to ensure that holy Delphi remains unsulled by crude workings of human players ).



Colonies List (plenty had to be left out, sad lol)
The list:

SPOILER: Click to show

Illyria
Apollonia - Epriote colony, neutral
Lissus - colonized by Syracuse which is Corinth,
Illyria/Dalmatia - (empty) Illyria proper itself in Greek accounts was specifically the area between Eprius and Liburnia.
Salonae - no mention of who founded it, neutral I suppose.
Liburnia - (empty) extent up to the southern edge of modern-day Istria
Natiso - river northeast of modern Venice, probably would encompass Istria or spin off that part as Histria on its own

Italy
Ravenna - technically did had some Thessalians (semi-related to fellow Aiolian, the Thebani), so I'm assigning this city to Thebes.
Insubria - empty space between Ravenna, Ancona and Tyr. Sea (at where Pisa would be)
Ancona - colonized by Syracuse, neutral for this one
Apulia - Empty space
Apenninon - Interior space of Italy
Taranto - Sparta (I might make it a non-home SC to limit free expansion)
Sybaris - Neutral SC
Croton - Settled by Achaea so, Neutral
Calabra - empty space between Rhegion & Croton
Rhegion - Euboia
Lucania - empty space above Rhegion
Poseidonia - Trozen (Argos), probably removed from map
Neapolis - Neutral (will be easy early gain by Euboia anyway)
Cumae - Euboia

Sicily
Zancle (Massena) - Seems to be a mix of Euboia and Samos, one of them will have this colony
Catana - buffer empty zone between Zancle and Syracuse
Syracuse - Corinth
Gela - Rhodes/Crete (would be neutral)
Akragas - Neutral, empty, or just remove from map
Selinunte - Megara, pretty sure supposed to be a neutral, but I would like to have a third player on the island (if no Carthagian player)
Panormos - Carthagian colony, Carthago is still a potential candidate as a player, it's a prolific colonizer like the Greeks
Himaera - Empty space next to Zancle

Corsica
Aleria - was founded by Phokaia (Ionian city, but with some Athenian hertiage, hmm?)

Sardinia
Olbia - Some kind of a Phoenician colony that was converted to a Greek colony apparently, no known linkage to specific Greek city-state, Neutral SC, I suppose
Tharros - western Sardinia, empty
Caralis - Phoenician colony under rule of Carthago, neutral. Can't feed the Carthago monster too much

Gaul/Iberia
Genua - Neutral SC
Massalia - Again by Phokaia
Emporion - Phokaia, but neutral SC
Tarraconensis - empty space
Zakynthos - SC
Mainake - Empty
Kalathousa

The Baleares
Palma - neutral SC or empty.

Euxine Sea (Black Sea but in Greek)
Byzantion - Neutral (is a strait space like CON on standard, incorporating Bithynia)
Pontus - empty space
Sinope - Miletos
Trapezous - Miletos, changed to neutral
Colchis - I wanted to put a SC named Pityus here, but I do need some empty space
Alania - large empty space touching between Sea of Azov and Armenia around Colchis & Phanagoria
Phanagoria - a SC seperated from Pantikapeon by Sea of Azov (Maeotis Lake)
Maeotis Lake - that Sea of Azov which was already mentioned several times elsewhere
Tanais - on northmost tip of Sea of Azov, Miletos
Pantikapeon - Miletos (yes, another colony of Miletos), however the colony had fell under the sway of the Thebans
Taurica - empty space (just barbarians here, nothing to see, move on )
Chersonesos - doesn't state which Greek city-state had colonized it, I want one of other players to have this location as a SC, possibly Athens?
Kimmenios - another empty space that just has some barbarians, moving on
Nikonion - Miletos, probably better off neutral instead? Also in this area, Olbia is bigger, but there's another Olbia, on Sardinia
Hypanis - empty space north of Nikonion, Kimmenios for manuvering room, also connects to the Dacia theater
Tomis - Miletos, but neutral SC instead
Odessos - today's Varna, not Odessa, btw. Miletos colony here.
*note: I'm limiting Miletos' colonies in the Black Sea area, or otherwise it's too OP as a power on the map, controlling way too many SCs around the Black Sea. I might even cut the numbers down further in a later draft.

Cyprus
Salamis - I would like to have a SC, or maybe Paphos instead of Salamis. I think Athenian would fit nicely here.
Kition - Seems to have some presence by the Phoenicians here too though. Neutral

Crete
Knossos - Ofc, gotta have Crete in this game. Neutral SC.

Libya
Cyrene - founded by Thera, but in turn which was founded by... Sparta?? Interesting, I've now found my second colony for Sparta after all!

TBC

[Tolbethessar]

Gameplay Section

Double SCs
Greece is seriously crowded, not surprised. I think I would allow some home SCs border each other, but not to the point where I see 1 player directly bordering two other players. That would be just too much.
So... It might be a bit too messy of a fix, but I am considering making specific cities count as two SCs to reduce the footprint PLUS to reduce the need for placing colonies in other parts (for some certain powers like Thebes maybe?) Others, I feel I can split up important locations such as Piraeus spinning off from Athens, but we will have to see.

Armed Neutrals
In general, if a Neutral SC has an unit on it, it would only be able to offer support, not moving itself. Assume similar system of using DPs as Ambition and Empire, until otherwise applied differently.

Still pending decisions regarding to major Non-Greeks, but for the time being, they're neutrals but well armed. I'm thinking of elite armies that could defend at the strength of 2 (NPC only, ofc), and to justify the expense of elite armies, they would be guarding not just neutral SCs, but double SCs as well, such as Carthago, Memphis, etc. This would have the benefit of leaving more of the map for the players to freely roam while not being able to intrude readily into those historical places.

Or just make those cities impassable.

Impassable spaces on a map feels a bit too crude to use, because with Elite Guards in SCs, it would at least pose a possibility but implausible for a player to completely ignore the other rivals in order to seize one of the NPCs' centers of civilization, instead of a hard limit.

Tripartite Division of Greek Tribes
A new Greek-flavored rule regarding Armed Neutrals and using Diplomatic Points. It's similar to the religions rule found in the A&E variant.

It doesn't make sense for Athenians to order Lydia to support an attack on the fellow Ionian polis of Miletos, nor would it make sense for Lacedaemonians to successfully urge barbaroi rabble to expell another fellow Dorian-speaker, Corinthians from a colony. Thus, the Tribal Dialect rule comes into play for this reason.

The Rule:
Within the same branch of a Greek tribal grouping, a power cannot order a neutral to support an attack upon another power who shares the same dialect.
Ordering a Neutral to support an attack on a different tribal Greek power is permitted.
Ordering a Neutral to support a hold of an unit you own against an incoming attack from a fellow Tribal member is permitted.
Ordering a Neutral to hold (which means the unit is simply not supporting) is entirely permitted in purposes of nullifying another player's DP expenditure.

This rule doesn't applies to the Phoenicians who doesn't belong in any of three tribal dialects. A Greek power may order supports for an attack on them, and in vice versa, they may order supports for an attack on a Greek.

Tribal Dialect Groupings
Ionic - Athenians, Milesians, Euboians
Dorian - Lacedaemonians, Corinthians
Aeolic - Boeotians, Macedonians, Smyrnaeans
None - Phoenicians

Note that there's a strong tendency for members within a grouping to cluster closely with each other on the map. This rule would have some considerable effect on many power vs power dynamics. Also, historically speaking, it is unknown how closely the Ancient Macedonian language is related to the other Ancient Greek dialects, or where it should be classified within the Ancient Greek family. For sake of gameplay and simplification, Macedonians are grouped with the Boeotians in the Aeolic branch.

Hostility of Lydia
Due to historical tensions, the Lydian empire has no interest in assisting neither Symrnaeans nor Milesians in their squabbles, therefore those two players cannot spend their DPs in influencing Lydia toward supporting an action (either a hold or an attack), but may spend DPs to order Lydia to hold (which means standing in place without supporting anyone).

Dynamics of Theaters
I envision each grouping of colonies to have competing mother cities trying to dominate various theaters. Ideally, I would like to have at least 3, if not just 2, rival powers in each cluster of colonies. Each power in that area would basically start with one (or two) colonies, trying to pick up some neutrals from there. They would have to make a decision to base their new unit: near home, or abroad? It would all depends on the overall trends of where powers are heading.

One thing in dynamics that might interact interestingly with the first section above (Double SCs)... Each Double SC within the Greece Homeland would be still be occupied by regular units (meaning the SC count exceed the Unit count at the beginning of the game), but because of the proximity of rivals at home, it would be pretty risky to leave that Double SC vacant for a build. In a way... while the main home region gives you the extra SC, you still have to rely on the outlying colonies to provide new units, send them back home to evict a rival from his home.

I'm trying to balance each power's numbers. I think an initial average of 4 to 5 SCs each with a possibility of growth up to a range of 6 to 9 (after the easy neutral grabs) would sound like it's not too big or too small for a dispersed power struggle for everybody.

Special Build Rules
Thinking back to the 1812 Overture variant where it had 'International Harbors' that allows any nation to build new units if owned and vacant for winter...
That could work nicely for this variant as well. It reinforce the concept of needing to reach out and establish footholds elsewhere than where you began in. I haven't figured out where these special locations might be, and I might end up having a conditional rule for these sites (like this certain player may use it as a build site for new units, but that other player cannot, etc). It would be akin to Russia and France+Rhine being the only two powers able to build in Warsaw, only New Spain could build in Madrid, that sort of thing.
Partially based on the Aberration's rule on allowing a build anywhere on an owned SC long as one of the original SCs were still owned. Modified because it's a bit too OP on this map.

The Homelands and Colonies Rules:

Colony SCs
As Greek colonies were under sway of the mother metropolis back in Greece, likewise in this game the colonies prosper and falls, sharing its fate with the motherland.
All owned colony SCs are available as build sites for that power long as it still has at least one of its Homeland SC. Original ownership of the colony does not confer special benefits (other than positional advantages for their units at the very start).

Hostile Homeland SCs
Foreign conquerors usually faces the native population bristling with resentment and even though they hold dominion over the polis, yet the polis does not serve its master well.
As so it is, in here: An enemy's homeland SC doesn't permit a power build a new unit even if it's owned and vacant during a winter season. The enemy homeland SCs also does not contribute toward that power's SC count. The only purpose in capturing an enemy's home is to deny him the ability to construct new units, and just to spite him vindictively.
However, in the event that the enemy power is completely wiped off the map (zero SCs remaining, zero units remaining), then in the next following winter season the enemy homeland SCs start contributing toward that power's count, but he still cannot build new units in those SCs.

Friendly Homeland SCs
Naturally, the homeland SCs that belongs to you at the start of the game counts toward your SC tally for a win, and when vacant serves as a build site for you to place a new unit on the map. These conditions applies only during the winter seasons that you maintain ownership of those SCs, of course.

List of Homeland SCs for each power:
Athenians - Athens (nothing else can compare to their favorite city)
Lacedaemonians - Sparta (Pylos is a helot city, not a true Spartan city)
Corinthians - Corinth
Milesians - Miletos, Ephesus
Smyrnaeans - Cyme, Smyrna
Euboians - Chalcis, Eretria
Boeotians - Thebes, Larissa
Macedonians - Thermae, Pella, and unnamed (All 3 starting SCs are in Macedonia)
Phoenicians - Tyre, Sidon, Carthago (Carthago is considered as a Homeland SC for this map)




In the end, I'm hoping that the map wouldn't bloat too much with all of the ideas.

[Tolbethessar]

Guys...You know you're allowed to put in your feedback, or even some drafts, ideas, research, that sort of thing, right?

[Transfermium]

Double SCs seem a tad complicated, but IDK.

Diplomatically some kind of DP feature à la Ambition and Empire could work for minor nations (e.g. Celtiberians, minor Greeks, Numidians), while interactions with major non-playable nations (e.g. Persia, Egypt, Phoenicia/Carthage) might be able to be simulated with a Распад (aka Dissolution)-style favours+retaliation mechanic as seen here.

For builds, maybe try Aberration-style builds (as long as a player still owns 1 home SC, they can build in any empty SC they own)?

Finally, Megara, the city-state that colonised Byzantion and whose colony, Heraclea Pontica, colonised Cherson, seems to be absent.

[Tolbethessar]

Nov 16, 2019 0:36:43 GMT Transfermium said:

Double SCs seem a tad complicated, but IDK.

Diplomatically some kind of DP feature à la Ambition and Empire could work for minor nations (e.g. Celtiberians, minor Greeks, Numidians), while interactions with major non-playable nations (e.g. Persia, Egypt, Phoenicia/Carthage) might be able to be simulated with a Распад (aka Dissolution)-style favours+retaliation mechanic as seen here.

For builds, maybe try Aberration-style builds (as long as a player still owns 1 home SC, they can build in any empty SC they own)?

Finally, Megara, the city-state that colonised Byzantion and whose colony, Heraclea Pontica, colonised Cherson, seems to be absent.

Points 1. + 2. Interesting, but I'm kinda confused... why would the Double SCs part be complicated but the Dissolution's favor system isn't complicated?

I'm the first person to freely admit that it is a crude mechanism and that I hope I don't need it.

The way it works for now (IF it's going to be used)... Let say the Lacedaemonians has the starting spaces:
Sparta - 2 SCs worth
Taranto - 1
Cyrene - 1
And each of the three has an unit on it.
So it's a 4 SCs but 3 units start for the Lacedaemonians, basically. Sparta is likely to be seriously close to somebody else, say... Corinth. It would be risky to move the unit off Sparta in the fall, hoping to get a new unit pop into there for the winter.

I'm just considering the possibility of not being able to get everything sufficiently spaced for everyone in Greece. If I simply transported the Greece directly from the Aegean variant into here (I need a name for this thing lol), I would have a SC count a little too high. 3 SCs at home for each power, not even counting neutrals, and that is a lot to insert into this map when there's plenty of colonies out there.

If you feel that it's still doable to have a larger scale of SC counts without bogging down the game, I could be convinced to transplant the Aegean variant right into there.

Point 3. Ah yes, Megara, I sort of mentioned indirectly that it's neutral (a bit too unclear in that wall of text, my fault, really).

What I said was that the list of weaker Greek factions would be generally going to be neutral if they're even on the map. Megara is classified as a descendant of Mycenae if I recall correctly. Hold on... (Just checked a minute ago, okay Megara was under Corinthians then was independent until taken by Athenians)

Hmm, honestly... Last night after writting and editing and reediting, I think Macedonia and the second Ionian faction might be facing the axe.

Leaving us with Athenians, Boeotians (Thebes+Thessaly), Lacedaemonians, Euboians, Milesians, Corinthians, 6 in all.

In a random moment of showering (of course, the best ideas always comes to you when you can't write on a paper or type into your phone! ), I thought about the Phoenicians having a very similar spread across the Mediterranean and could easily fit into the map as a power.

Etruscans and Egyptians are still incompatible other than standing NPCs, tho.

[Dr. Hendrei Gromsinger]

Nov 16, 2019 4:02:48 GMT Tolbethessar said:

Nov 16, 2019 0:36:43 GMT Transfermium said:

Double SCs seem a tad complicated, but IDK.

Diplomatically some kind of DP feature à la Ambition and Empire could work for minor nations (e.g. Celtiberians, minor Greeks, Numidians), while interactions with major non-playable nations (e.g. Persia, Egypt, Phoenicia/Carthage) might be able to be simulated with a Распад (aka Dissolution)-style favours+retaliation mechanic as seen here.

For builds, maybe try Aberration-style builds (as long as a player still owns 1 home SC, they can build in any empty SC they own)?

Finally, Megara, the city-state that colonised Byzantion and whose colony, Heraclea Pontica, colonised Cherson, seems to be absent.

Points 1. + 2. Interesting, but I'm kinda confused... why would the Double SCs part be complicated but the Dissolution's favor system isn't complicated?

I'm the first person to freely admit that it is a crude mechanism and that I hope I don't need it.

The way it works for now (IF it's going to be used)... Let say the Lacedaemonians has the starting spaces:
Sparta - 2 SCs worth
Taranto - 1
Cyrene - 1
And each of the three has an unit on it.
So it's a 4 SCs but 3 units start for the Lacedaemonians, basically. Sparta is likely to be seriously close to somebody else, say... Corinth. It would be risky to move the unit off Sparta in the fall, hoping to get a new unit pop into there for the winter.

I'm just considering the possibility of not being able to get everything sufficiently spaced for everyone in Greece. If I simply transported the Greece directly from the Aegean variant into here (I need a name for this thing lol), I would have a SC count a little too high. 3 SCs at home for each power, not even counting neutrals, and that is a lot to insert into this map when there's plenty of colonies out there.

If you feel that it's still doable to have a larger scale of SC counts without bogging down the game, I could be convinced to transplant the Aegean variant right into there.

Point 3. Ah yes, Megara, I sort of mentioned indirectly that it's neutral (a bit too unclear in that wall of text, my fault, really).

What I said was that the list of weaker Greek factions would be generally going to be neutral if they're even on the map. Megara is classified as a descendant of Mycenae if I recall correctly. Hold on... (Just checked a minute ago, okay Megara was under Corinthians then was independent until taken by Athenians)

Hmm, honestly... Last night after writting and editing and reediting, I think Macedonia and the second Ionian faction might be facing the axe.

Leaving us with Athenians, Boeotians (Thebes+Thessaly), Lacedaemonians, Euboians, Milesians, Corinthians, 6 in all.

In a random moment of showering (of course, the best ideas always comes to you when you can't write on a paper or type into your phone! ), I thought about the Phoenicians having a very similar spread across the Mediterranean and could easily fit into the map as a power.

Etruscans and Egyptians are still incompatible other than standing NPCs, tho.

I think the Phoenicians could make for an interesting different flavor, with a corner position kinda like Turkey in vanilla. I'd be all for them.

And if you incorporate the Phoenicians or suchlike, you need less playable powers in Greece -> more spacing out -> less need for a double SC mechanism.

[Tolbethessar]

A general idea of SC distribution around the map. It's not even a preliminary draft of a Diplomacy map.
WARNING! I haven't really figured out neither Greece, Asia Minor, nor the Aegean Sea areas at all.

SPOILER: Click to show

First, before you expose your eyes to this abomination of a map, just remember that the red areas are basically impassible. Sahara in Africa is impassible, but I'm not marking it out.

Second, split dot colors is a way of me indicating that I'm not sure whose dot it ought be. All colors are keyed down at the bottom of the map itself in North Africa.
And I think all colonies (outside Greece, Asia Minor, Aegean Sea) are already listed above in another post. I specifically organized the list to be followable along a coast, like from East to West, etc.

SPOILER: Click to show

---

Explaining things on the map now...

• Carthage is presently linked together with the Phoenicia homeland, because while Carthage leads western Phoenicians and Tyre leads eastern Phoenicians, nearly every single Phoenician colony in the eastern half were wiped out by Greeks, Egyptians, and Babylonians, etc. Only Cyprus weren't completely wiped out out of all other colonies. So it's for gameplay reasons.
• Cyprus... I would like to see some conflict between a Greek power vs Phoenician homeland, so one of the dots are marked half grey, half blue. Athens might be the likest candidate.
• Yes, Thebes and Thessaly are linked together
• Israel could be included, or maybe not. Red Sea would still be impassible anyway (because of Egypt), and I really don't want an extension of the map to include Mesopotamia or Arabia, or Armenia, whatever else in the east. Until Alexander the Great came along, Greeks (nor Phoenicians) weren't colonizing it anyway.
• Western Turkey is marked off in red because of the Lydian Empire, this means the Ionian power(s) can't just wander inland past Sardis. There's still an available corridor in Eastern Turkey for interaction between the Black Sea and Syria.
• Sparta is pretty small in SC count, but I've a feeling I can put in additional Lacedaemonian SCs on the Peloponnese, like Pylos. It would work (I hope).
• Athens is pretty concentrated around the Aegean, I wouldn't feel comfortable giving it a fifth SC in the same theater, but somewhere else far away would work. Cyprus isn't exactly that far though.
• Samos probably would just simply have to be a neutral. Samos feels way too close to Miletos no matter what. I could envision Phocaea (northern Ionian city, not yet marked on map) being a rival colonizer. It had Corsica & Southern France/Iberia as its main area of focus (while Miletos obviously were hyper-colonizing Black Sea this whole time, lol). So the blue/yellow dots are an indicator of that area for Phocaea. The blue half represent the technically true semi-hertiage of Athenian blood in those Ionian colonies.
• Macedonia is really, really hard to justify as a participator of this colonization. I probably could sprinkle Illyria and Dacia with some more neutral SCs for Macedonia to expand northward if I really should ever put this power into this variant. I wouldn't want to create a monster out of Macedonia by giving it more than 3 SCs in such a concentrated place. Def no fourth starting SC. Just no.
• Before somebody mentions the lack of SCs in North Africa... I apologize. *cough* It was originally slanted to be mostly Carthaginian (until it became one of the players). I haven't compiled a list of colonies in that area. Modern Algeria and Morroco would have some SCs for sure.
• Ithaka (unmarked) will be a neutral SC near Greece, I won't leave it out, I promise. 'Cause of Odyssey, you know!

---

List of Powers (both existing and potential ones), and their starting SCs.

SPOILER: Click to show

• Athenians - 5
  
  • Athens
  • Cyclades (Delos, basically)
  • Krenides (the Pangaion Mines)
  • Hellespont
  • Paphos (possibly)
• Lacedaemonians -4
  
  • Sparta
  • Taranto
  • Cyrene
  • Pylos (not shown on map)
• Boeotians - 5
  
  • Thebes
  • Larissa
  • Ravenna
  • Cyzicus
  • Pantikapeon
• Euboia - 4 (exuding Zancle)
  
  • Chalcis
  • Eretria (not shown)
  • Cumae
  • Rhegion
  • Zancle (possible, but doubtful, already 2 others in Magna Grecia)
• Phoenicians - 6 (more like 5)
  
  • Tyre
  • Sidon
  • Carthago
  • Panormos
  • Carthago Nova
  • Caralis (I don't feel comfortable giving them a sixth, considering their two nice corner positions)
• Milesians - 5
  
  • Miletos
  • Ephesus
  • Sinope
  • Tanais
  • Odessos
• Corinthians - 4
  
  • Corinth
  • Syracuse
  • Corcyra
  • Lissus
• Phocaeans - 4 (good possibility of an Ionian rival for Miletos)
  
  • Phocaea
  • Smyrna
  • Massilia
  • Aleria
• Macedonia - 3 (I'm not entirely sure if I should even consider it, but I do see it as possible)
  
  • Thermae
  • Pella
  • 3rd center possibly in Paenoia, north for growth
• 10th power? You tell me, guys.

All of this coloring is stored in multiple layers in an XCF, so I can easily undo anything

[Frederick the Great]

I like the map and the theme in general but I think there's a problem in Italy:

If the bulk of Etruscan territory is declared impassable an army would have to resort by going through the coast nearby which can easily be blocked by an opposing army, creating a confusing situation just like what happens in Piedmont in 1900.

Now either we make the coastline impassable too, so no one bothers going there overland and navies remain unaffected. Or we can give some more land to that narrow strip on the coast so none of that uncomfortable situation happens

[Tolbethessar]

Nov 16, 2019 10:59:39 GMT Frederick the Great said:

I like the map and the theme in general but I think there's a problem in Italy:

If the bulk of Etruscan territory is declared impassable an army would have to resort by going through the coast nearby which can easily be blocked by an opposing army, creating a confusing situation just like what happens in Piedmont in 1900.

Now either we make the coastline impassable too, so no one bothers going there overland and navies remain unaffected. Or we can give some more land to that narrow strip on the coast so none of that uncomfortable situation happens

I know what you meant to say. You mean Vanilla, because in 1900, SWI is passable and a SC.

It's a lot faster for me to show you via a hand drawing, I'm sorry if it's not good. I'm aiming for a clean quick draw here.

It's what I'm thinking of (nothing is set in stone, ofc):

You can see there's some bit more wiggle room than it looks at first. Secondly, I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of the units in the game is fleets anyway. It's looking to be a naval-heavy variant.

But what you said was a good feedback, good catch with your eye!

[Frederick the Great]

Nov 16, 2019 11:18:33 GMT Tolbethessar said:

Nov 16, 2019 10:59:39 GMT Frederick the Great said:

I like the map and the theme in general but I think there's a problem in Italy:

If the bulk of Etruscan territory is declared impassable an army would have to resort by going through the coast nearby which can easily be blocked by an opposing army, creating a confusing situation just like what happens in Piedmont in 1900.

Now either we make the coastline impassable too, so no one bothers going there overland and navies remain unaffected. Or we can give some more land to that narrow strip on the coast so none of that uncomfortable situation happens

I know what you meant to say. You mean Vanilla, because in 1900, SWI is passable and a SC.

It's a lot faster for me to show you via a hand drawing, I'm sorry if it's not good. I'm aiming for a clean quick draw here.

It's what I'm thinking of (nothing is set in stone, ofc):

You can see there's some bit more wiggle room than it looks at first. Secondly, I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of the units in the game is fleets anyway. It's looking to be a naval-heavy variant.

But what you said was a good feedback, good catch with your eye!

Thanks. Well that's quite a lot of space then, especially for a naval-focused game